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Barenberg Clarence Book Gone Digital
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Brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 1361
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murr wrote:

To be "amazing" ..I think a gizmo would have to provide a 3d hologram of Clarence and display every nuance. Laughing


It can do that too! I forgot to mention it Cool Very Happy
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Murr



Joined: 24 May 2008
Posts: 384
Location: http://www.youtube.com/user/skydogz1

PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing Shocked Very Happy
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teleduster



Joined: 11 Aug 2010
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, when I'm learning a tune from tablature, I find it too challenging to play full speed the first or second time through.

Razz
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dasmith



Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 1
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem of transcribing from recordings is not unique to guitar music, and a lot of the principles are the same regardless of instrument. A friend of mine and former fellow student doubled the known literature of George Gershwin's solo piano music by transcribing his old electrical recordings and piano rolls, for which the composer left no notation. She told me she wore out two tape recorders in the process. That was in the mid-80s, before the advent of convenient software like Audacity, a free program which performs at least some of the tricks that Slow Downer does.

http://www.artiswodehouse.com/bio.html

http://sourceforge.net/search/?q=audacity

Gershwin was playing with ten fingers, not three or four and a pick, so of course radical slowdown was really the only solution, and even then often uncertain. Yet I'm not surprised that even a musician as good as Barenberg may not have caught all the subtle nuances that Clarence infused his pieces with. The transcriber has to alternate between slow and a-tempo to understand the piece. In the final analysis, though, no notation -- be it tablature or conventional piano-type -- can capture the full gamut of a musical performance unless it's an arid performance. They were invented as guides for the performer, who has to interpret the guidelines musically.

As for feeling "challenged" to play up to tempo, it's a truism in classical music training that if you practice fast before you've completely mastered a new piece, you are rehearsing your mistakes. I remember reading that Franz Liszt could do it, at least with some pieces, but he already had built a monster technique.
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Silverface



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 324
Location: Hermosa Beach CA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1 for Murr.

Slowdown AND tab are to me essentially the same thing - one in printed form, the other audible. Both are a "painting" of something that's multidimensional, and you simply cannot get the nuances from either, no matter how detailed you make the tab nor how wonderful a sped-control program is at maintaining frequency response/articulation.

One of the biggest problems is you have no way of determining how the right hand was used. Distance from bridge, pick angle, stroke direction, etc., plus even the type and shape of pick can make a huge difference in "cloning" a player's snippet.

Both ARE good tools..but IMO only if you're using them to get a general idea of a melody/pattern/style and will then adapt it int your own individual style.

There are players who spend years copying Clapton, Hendrix, Clarence...whoever...fills and solos, attempting to play them EXACTLY like a particular recorded version, which they then use when they play the song live.

When I hear that kind of playing I can tolerate it for about 5 minutes before I get bored to tears.

Point - it's already been done. And better. Because when it was ORIGINALLY done it was "created". I listed those three specifically for a couple of reasons - they all have very distinctive styles yet what they all copied from other players was used to tweak their own way of playing.

This statement has been often related (and attributed to dozens of player/teachers, so its origination is unknown), but its what my personal feeling is about tab (and why I rarely use it with my students):

"Try to copy everything you can find by the "heroes" that play your style or play stuff you REALLY want to be able to do.

Then once you have it nailed, never play it that way again."

I'm not dissing slowing down recordings or using tab as a reference to learn a new song or a fill/solo you really like.

But DON'T use it to play like a musical Xerox machine.

With certain songs there are "hooks" that are critical - they identify the song. you need to know 'em, usually. But you DON'T have to play a carbon-copy. Use tab (or a slowdown system) to learn the hook, but just the critical elements - then play it YOUR way.

I'm posting all of this because of one question raised - "How accurate is the tab?".

Who cares? it can't ever provide all the information anyway, so as long as it's close it's fine. You really need Murr's holographic machine to present anything accurately.

The book's good, it gives a lot of detail other tabs don't, it has some seemingly missing or wrong notes...but Clarence never played anything EXACTLY the same. Listen to the 100 bootleg copies of Mr. Spaceman and the stuttering lick he played (with Gene usually driving him nuts playing a matching drum fill) - every single one has SOME variation, whether timing, a note here or there, a change in attack, pickup selection, speed...

In other words - learn the stuff that will help you with YOUR style.

If pushed, I can play some Clarence electric parts pretty darned close to some specific versions he played. But I won't unless it's just to show a part to someone. MY style is a combination of Clarence, Bob, and mostly blues players. My "fallback" is bender-based but more of a Mike Bloomfield/Duane Allman style even though I play a lot of country rock (where I will play what I need to for the gig). I swiped a lot of Clarence and maybe even more of Bob's playing and incorporated it into blues-rock.

But whether paying blues, blues rock, country rock or country I (for better or worse) sound like me - not Clarence.

And I don't WANT to sound like Clarence.

Hope that helps! It's an esoteric subject. But it is (IMO) the defining difference between "having a style" and just "playing guitar".
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Brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 1361
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silverface wrote:
+1 for Murr.

Slowdown AND tab are to me essentially the same thing - one in printed form, the other audible. Both are a "painting" of something that's multidimensional, and you simply cannot get the nuances from either, no matter how detailed you make the tab nor how wonderful a sped-control program is at maintaining frequency response/articulation.


This is where I respectfully and completely disagree... Slowdowner and TAB are NOT the same thing. From spending time with the Slowdowner I CAN get the nuances and feel from the recordings. Yes I CAN...and whats more...I learn from the note choices and why they make sense withing the musical context of the song and because I CAN (usually) nail the phrasing and nuances via the Slowdowner...they become ingrained in my muscle memory and as I slowly forget the specific experience of learning a particular phrase or song the rest of what remains from that experience becomes melded with my own style or amalgamation of the many styles that I have liked across the years... I'll bet Clarence would have LOVED to have access to the Amazing SLow Downer when he was trying to decipher Django Reinhart licks many years ago
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djalt



Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 1
Location: toronto, canada

PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:40 am    Post subject: Brian I am in Toronto, It's 10:38 pm, Sat Jan 1, 2010 Reply with quote

How are you posting from the future?
Does the Amazing Slow Downer do that too?

Brian wrote:
Silverface wrote:
+1 for Murr.

Slowdown AND tab are to me essentially the same thing - one in printed form, the other audible. Both are a "painting" of something that's multidimensional, and you simply cannot get the nuances from either, no matter how detailed you make the tab nor how wonderful a sped-control program is at maintaining frequency response/articulation.


This is where I respectfully and completely disagree... Slowdowner and TAB are NOT the same thing. From spending time with the Slowdowner I CAN get the nuances and feel from the recordings. Yes I CAN...and whats more...I learn from the note choices and why they make sense withing the musical context of the song and because I CAN (usually) nail the phrasing and nuances via the Slowdowner...they become ingrained in my muscle memory and as I slowly forget the specific experience of learning a particular phrase or song the rest of what remains from that experience becomes melded with my own style or amalgamation of the many styles that I have liked across the years... I'll bet Clarence would have LOVED to have access to the Amazing SLow Downer when he was trying to decipher Django Reinhart licks many years ago
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Silverface



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 324
Location: Hermosa Beach CA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, Brian - we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I've used ASD, Audacity, All types of studio software - and while they WILL find you notes and some general idea of how *hard* the attack is **IF** the recording is VERY natural, you simply can't know pick position, angle of attack, pick type. left vs right hand damping...and in many cases it's indistinguishable whether a pick or pick and fingernails (hybrid) style is used.

You CAN write those notes down in tab, but then it becomes so complicated as to be useless.

And again - why worry about cloning every nuance? Why not get the general idea/feel and take it you OWN direction?

I've never had any musical admiration for cover bands that play "just like the record", though - so for me both slowdown systems and tab are basic reference points only.
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Brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 1361
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim early on when I was TABing Clarence...yes I wrote it all down...It was only to document all the work I put into it (which was extensive and tiresome)...Here's the key though...I NEVER read the tabs after that and still don't. These days I still use the Slow Downer for learning but I'm too lazy to write anything down anymore...I find it an Amazingly useful tool. I never play reading from TAB..I've always listened to the music which everyone does... back in the old days I would try and slow records down to 16RPM and then later 1/2 speed decks...and now with DSP technology it is the music transcribers dream. It's just a tool...
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Raybob



Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 98
Location: Kyburz, CA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think I tore up a lot of vinyl back in the day, listening at 16 speed to get the notes, moving the needle numerous times. Laughing
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