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Clarence neck mystery revealed!
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Silverface



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 324
Location: Hermosa Beach CA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:40 pm    Post subject: Clarence neck mystery revealed! Reply with quote

I just (due to a thread on the TDPRI) watched the Playboy After Dark set again (not my favorite Clarence set) - but thought I noticed something and quickly hit the screen print.

Then I went back and watched and did it again.

Then I pulled up a pic of the guitar as it's configured now, with the 1956 neck.

Folks - these are NOT the same necks! In one of the P.A.D. pics you can't see a decal...in the second *possibly* a smudge of one...

...but in a completely different place and at a different angle than the decal on the neck Fender examined at NAMM.

There were no consistent placements of decals by Fender in the 50's - I've seen original guitars with them just about everywhere they can fit.

As far as I'm concerned this kills the "it's a '56 Tele "proof"". The current neck isn't the one that was on the original "Esquire", not necessarily proving it was originally a '54...but certainly proving it wasn't THAT '56 neck.





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Brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 1361
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The video is so blurry its hard to tell. But I have a downloaded copy of the video and a decal is somewhat visible. The lighting and the resolution of th evideo suck. Heck you can't even see 'Rickenbacker' on McGuinn's RIC. Plus you cant really make out the Fender logo on John York's bass either.

Its the same neck....a 56...look at the string tree placement. That's a 56 location...look up the details on that..

The neck in the pic below is NOT the same..string tree and 12 position doys are different



Last edited by Brian on Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Silverface



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 324
Location: Hermosa Beach CA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the picture Brian.

The string tree is also in a completely different position in THAT picture (FAR closer to the 4th string - and it's not a camera angle trick, plus there's no "relocation" hole), which is shot at the same angle as P.A.D. That makes it even more interesting, since the picture you posted doesn't match either of the others.

The P.A.D. picture may be blurry, but the blur of the decal is absolutely in a different location than on any of several pictures of the neck as it is *now*. The pic you posted - which has no provenance related to the current neck - appears to be yet another neck.

The position dot "movement" has been noted before, with some early pics indicating a later neck, then an older neck after the neck pickup installation, then the '56 in the Fender pics.

That one you posted is a real anomaly - I'd not noticed that before, but it's significantly "off".
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Brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 1361
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right the string tree is in a different spot!!!

Son of a gun.... It sure looks like that neck in the pic I posted is NOT the same neck as the 56 neck that is on the guitar now. Not sure what to think. Was the neck above the original neck? Or was that neck only on there temporarily ? We have to look at more pics now to make sure we have pics of Clarence with the current (56) neck to make sure he played it
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Brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 1361
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When Marty got the guitar it has the 56 neck here

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Brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 1361
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and heres the 56 headstock today

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Brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 1361
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here's a 55 headstock



and a 54



and another 56

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Brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 1361
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Clarence neck mystery revealed! Reply with quote

Silverface wrote:
I just (due to a thread on the TDPRI) watched the Playboy After Dark set again (not my favorite Clarence set) - but thought I noticed something and quickly hit the screen print.

Then I went back and watched and did it again.

Then I pulled up a pic of the guitar as it's configured now, with the 1956 neck.

Folks - these are NOT the same necks! In one of the P.A.D. pics you can't see a decal...in the second *possibly* a smudge of one...

...but in a completely different place and at a different angle than the decal on the neck Fender examined at NAMM.

There were no consistent placements of decals by Fender in the 50's - I've seen original guitars with them just about everywhere they can fit.

As far as I'm concerned this kills the "it's a '56 Tele "proof"". The current neck isn't the one that was on the original "Esquire", not necessarily proving it was originally a '54...but certainly proving it wasn't THAT '56 neck.







Jim the interesting thing about the PAD screenshot captures that you took of Clarence's headstock... show that the string tree is in the position of a 56 Tele...

The picture I posted shows the guitar with the different neck...weird!!!
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Silverface



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 324
Location: Hermosa Beach CA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's what I've said ever since Fender took it apart and proclaimed it was '56 based on the neck alone (as the pots had been changed). I talked to the guys and they said that because of the VG article they had to say something specific or (the late) Bill Schultz would have emasculated them for appearing to not know everything about their own instruments.

But even Ritchie has admitted they didn't know as much as many vintage hounds - before manufacturing was ever started in Corona they had to BUY their own guitars (vintage models) from guys like Gruhn and Stan Jay to "blueprint" as they did not get all the manufacturing machinery (actually hardly anything) or CAD (computer aided design) data. Much of the history was lost.

The "vintage police" always get on Fender for inaccuracies - and for good reason until the Custom shop finally built up a huge library.

But my info came from Clarence and Red Rhodes in conversations - I admit it's hard to provide provenance since conversations weren't recorded, but then again I don't have anything invested in the subject (and could not care less if it was a '54, '56 or '70 with an old decal!). I just noticed irregularities pictures long ago, and when Fender allowed the neck date to be posted on the 'net I called "BS" (not BS that it was a fake neck...just that it was not the *original* neck).

It's funny - I noticed the decal smudge in the video but not the string tree, at least initially.

BTW - the decal is at a different angle in the CW pictures - note the placement of "TELECASTER" in the color and BW pics Brian posted.

Also, FWIW posting pics of a "real" '56 is cool, but proves nothing - since all decals were installed by hand, as I previously posted the positioning varies...which actually kind of backs the "different necks" story.

I always keep in mind that Clarence was a known tinkerer. He built his own fuzz, he installed the Keith pegs himself - there were no "guitar techs" employed by players in those days, taking care of restringing, mods and maintenance etc. - they did it themselves or went to a shop like Red's.

Now the $100 question:

Where IS the original neck??????????????

Mur - THAT is a quest for YOU! I found Clarence's little-known Echoplex. It's your turn!

Razz
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Brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 1361
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The question is WHAT is the right neck...

It seems clear from the B/W pic that I posted that Clarence had swapped the neck for at least this moment in time...which was after PAD....which shows the 56 string tree placement. AT this point he still owned Bob Warford's 54 Tele. I wonder if that guitar had a maple neck with it? and maybe the rosewood neck that Bob has now came afterward?

Now that I think of it...there is a video of Bob playing his blonde Tele with the Everly Bros which shows the guitar with a MAPLE neck...I'll see if I can find it
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Brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 1361
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OMG ...I cant believe what I found!!!!!! These are videos I've never seen...different than the blurry one I found before

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUV1-L3fy_s&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL9A5394E21DDD0D40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLlN-zsE6P0&feature=related
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Murr



Joined: 24 May 2008
Posts: 384
Location: http://www.youtube.com/user/skydogz1

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Warford traded the Noble to Clarence in '67. The maple neck in those '71 vids could have been a temp if he was getting fret-job on the Strat neck. Btw, I asked him about it years ago, and he didn't recall anything about that neck, as I remember.
.
.
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rballister



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 174
Location: New York City

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow! Great playing and closeups of Bob (on his maple neck!). What's that giant round decal on his tele?
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Bob Warford



Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is a decal that Dennis Morse gave me. He was rhythm player with Clarence, Roland, Eric and me when we played together in 1966-7 as the Kentucky Colonels, or White Brothers and Friends, depending on which show it was, and then later, drummer with a few local bands I played in, and then roadie for the Byrds - the photos on the back of "Dr. Byrds and Mr. Hyde" were taken at his ranch/feedlot in Moreno Valley,CA... Dennis had been a lineman setting up high tension power lines, before any of this, and was a member of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. He gave me that decal to cover a spot on the Telecaster where the paint had worn off and bare wood was showing. The decal is still there, but really faded....

Incidentally, the presence of that decal is NOT intended to express any personal views about unions, labor relations, or anything else... it covers a bald spot on the guitar body.

The maple neck still baffles me - I did have a Tele I bought in around 1967, when Clarence encouraged me to go to electric guitar (he loaned me a couple of guitars, but I bought that Tele, which was about a 1956 or 57, as I recall, and it had a maple neck). I never had the frets replaced or dressed on the recut Strat neck on the white Tele I got from Clarence (and, interestingly, to this day, they still have never been replaced or dressed - don't know what they're made of, but they do last), so all I can think of is that I decided to try the maple neck for a while on the white Tele - frankly, I don't recall when or how I parted company with the Tele I bought before getting the white one from Clarence, although I wish, in retrospect, that I hadn't let it go.

Anyway, thanks for the kind comments about the Everly Australia show that recently appeared on the Net - brought back lots of memories of that tour, which included at least two shows in New Zealand and a bunch of shows all across Australia - the only time I've ever stuck my foot in the Indian Ocean, when we played Perth, on the extreme western coast of Australia...

Bob
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rballister



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 174
Location: New York City

PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looked at the video again and wondered about the fingerpicks Bob was using. I knew early on Clarence was using a plectrum and two fingers (nails) for his right hand technique. I didn't want to have a claw for a right hand so I decided to try two plastic finger picks. Little bit more awkward than grown out nails but sorta worked. I know McGuinn uses two metal finger picks. I'm guessing the decision was to utilize his banjo technique on the rick 12 (hence the metal finger picks). Bob, as you're a banjo player, was your thinking along the same lines? Are they metal finger picks?
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